(1) Chambers, T. J. Regulation of the differentiation and function of osteoclasts. J. Pathol, 2000; 192: 4–13
(2) Boyle, W.J., Simonet, W.S. & Lacey, D.L. Osteoclast differentiation and activation. Nature, 2003; 423: 337–342
(3)Udagawa, N. Takahashi N, Akatsu T,et al. Origin of osteoclasts: mature monocytes and macrophages are capable of differentiating into osteoclasts under a suitable microenvironment prepared by bone marrow-derived stromal cells. Proc. Natl Acad. Sci. USA, 1990;87:7260–7264
(4) Lee SH, Rho J, Jeong D, et al. v-ATPase V0 subunit d2–deficient mice exhibit impaired osteoclast fusion and increased bone formation Nat Med. , 2006; 12:1403 - 1409
(5) Teitelbaum, S., L., and F. P. Ross. Genetic regulation of osteoclast developmentand function. Nat. Rev. Genet,2003;, 8: 638–649.
(6)Teitelbaum, S.L. Bone resorption by osteoclasts. Science,2000;289:1504–1508
谢谢指正!可是,我刚刚分离出来的细胞培养30分后没有破骨细胞的任何基本形态,而且染色后依然没有多核形态。而且我培养10天后仍然没有死亡。上面的染色图片就是我6-8天左右染色的结果。我是遵照一些博硕论文上面的方法操作的,基本上都没有用到维生素诱导。我想经过染色,看到的多核细胞(最后一张图片)应该就是破骨细胞。谢谢你提出的宝贵意见。期待与您继续探讨!作者: toy 时间: 2011-12-18 15:32
应该不会是种属之间的差异,幼鼠的成熟的破骨细胞更加容易存活而已。我觉得机械分离法培养破骨细胞最重要的是提高成熟的破骨细胞的纯度,它不像诱导法那样可以得到大量的破骨细胞样细胞(osteoclast like cell),有一篇文献的提高纯度的方法我觉得挺好的,正准备也用此法,你可以参考一下:“高纯度破骨细胞分离培养与功能表达”中国骨质疏松杂志 2001 年2 月第7 卷第1 期。你用此法试试呢?咱们交流交流。作者: toy 时间: 2011-12-18 15:32
再请问这位群友,做骨吸收实验的时候,我想用象牙片,你知道怎么获得吗?谢谢。作者: toy 时间: 2011-12-18 15:33
Okey, here are the points: mature osteoclasts (OCs) are TRAP postive giant cells with multi-nucei. They share common origin with monocytes/macrophage lineage. In vivo, in bone microenvironment, or in vitro, under suitable conditions, OCs progenitors will be turned into osteoclasts. In the process of differentiation, people usually call monocleated TRAP positive cells as pre-osteoclasts, or osteoclasts precursors.
Hope this would be some help.作者: fei1226com 时间: 2011-12-18 15:42
In the first place, I would like to clarify that all the points I listed at 2007-02-06 13:15 are my opinions. Of course, some of fresh cells you isolated are mature osteoclasts, however, there must be many cells which are at pre-osteoclasts (mononuclear cells) stage, although they are TRAP positive too.
In the second place, from my point of view, you can employ both methods to isolate cells from the bones. But, if you isolate cells by using trypsin, the cells may need longer time to recovery.
In conclusion, the cells you harvested will not be pure mature osteoclasts.作者: fei1226com 时间: 2011-12-18 15:43
(1) I do not think RANKL mRNA is expressed in osteoclasts. Please double check. To my knowledge, RANKL is expressed in osteoblasts, activated T-cells and activated synovial fibroblasts. Osteoclasts only express RANK.
(2) I do not know how to anwer other of your questions because I do not know the aims of your study. But, you could use the cells once they attached.作者: fei1226com 时间: 2011-12-18 15:44
谢谢!您说的(1)我有些不同的理解,RANK是破骨细胞的配基,当破骨细胞繁殖时,通过外界物质刺激,特异性的表达RANKL,而成骨细胞中的特异性表达因子是OPG,当OPG表达过多时,会对体系内破骨细胞的RANKL产生拮抗,从而抑制破骨细胞生长。
我对以上的理解来源于:
《Osteopontin as a positive regulator in the osteoclastogenesis of arthritis》
文献太大,没法给您传上去,方便的话可以给您发到邮箱里。作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 15:44
As i mentioned above, osteoclasts are terminal cells which never proliferate, (except their precursors).
And, there is none RANKL expressed on osteoclasts, except its receptor, RANK.
Osteoblasts not only express RANKL, but also osteoprotegerin (OPG).作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 15:45
This is the abstract of that paper (I have the full text of this paper too):
"We examined the role of osteopontin (OPN) in the osteoclastogenesis of arthritis using collagen-induced arthritis (CIA). Cells
from arthritic joints of wild-type (OPN +/+) mice spontaneously developed bone-resorbing osteoclast-like cells (OCLs). The cultured
cells showed an enhanced expression of receptor activator of nuclear factor jB ligand (RANKL) and a decreased expression of
osteoprotegerin (OPG). The addition of OPG reduced the number of OCLs, indicating that the osteoclastogenesis depends on the
RANK/RANKL/OPG system. The cells also produced OPN abundantly and anti-OPN neutralizing antibodies suppressed the
development of OCLs. Moreover, the addition of OPN increased the expression of RANKL and augmented differentiation of OCLs
from OPN-deficient (OPN )/)) cells. OPN, like the combination of 1a,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 and dexamethasone, also enhanced
the RANKL expression and decreased OPG expression in a stromal cell line, ST2. These results suggest that OPN acts as a positive
regulator in the osteoclastogenesis of arthritis through the RANK/RANKL/OPG system.
2004 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved."作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 15:46
如果你详细看看上边摘要,就知道在这句话中:"The cultured
cells showed an enhanced expression of receptor activator of nuclear factor jB ligand (RANKL) and a decreased expression of
osteoprotegerin (OPG).","the cultured cells" 没有说是破骨细胞.
如果你再去读该文章的813页,你就彻底明白了:OPN enhances the RANKL expression and suppresses the OPG expression on stromal cells:
Because the harvested cells from joints were a heterogeneous
mixture of cells derived from multiple sources,
such as stromal cells, osteoclast precursors, and lymphocytes,
etc., there are limitations in evaluating mRNA
expression. To clarify the effect of OPN on the expression
of RANKL and OPG, we used a murine stromal
cell line, ST2. As positive control, we used 1,25(OH)2D3
and Dex, which are well-known agents that induce
stromal cells to express RANKL and reduce their expression
of OPG [3,4,8,12,19]. While the combination of.....作者: fei1226com 时间: 2011-12-18 15:46
RAW264.7 cells were first used by Hsu et al to generate osteoclasts in vitro (Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol. 96, pp. 3540–3545, March 1999), and this method is widly used. By using this approach, I myself can produce osteoclasts with more than a hundred nuclei. I remind of you that, do not like primary cells, you do not need to use M-CSF in this model. sRANKL alone is enough.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 15:47
The purpose of countstain the cells with Hematoxylin is to see nuclei. Nuclei are blue labelled by Hematoxylin, not the color what you mentioned. Your are right, countstaining is not necessary for there is no problem to see nuclei without this step.
What is the cat# of Sigma kit you are using? I used to use 386/7-A but I do not like it.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 15:51 标题: 回复 #65 ladyhuahua 的帖子
I made sRANKL by myself so does not matter how big the cell culture vehicle used. However,if you purchase RANKL you should use 8-well chambered slides, of course depends on what is the purpose of your experiments. For instance, if you want to extract RNA from the cells, you have to use dishes otherwise you would not have enough products. If you want to see osteoclasteogenesis, I think either 8-well chambered slides or 48-well plate will do.
For 60-mm Petri-dishes, 4 ml medium/dish.
I know commercial RANKL is very expensive, around 180USD/10ug.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 15:52
The purpose of countstain the cells with Hematoxylin is to see nuclei. Nuclei are blue labelled by Hematoxylin, not the color what you mentioned. You are right, countstaining is not necessary.
What is the cat# of Sigma kit you are using? I used to use 386/7-A but I do not like it.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 15:52
(1) when you plate RAW264.7 cells, you add sRANKL. (same time).
(2) cells will stop to proliferate when sRANKL is added, so your problem is not a problem.
(3) the reason you have this problem (cells still dividing when RANKL added) is: your raw264.7 cells are too old (i mean the generation).作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 15:55
前辈
非常感谢阿,bow~~~
cell still dividing when RANKL add,除了the cell generation is too old(我用的是15代,应该多少代之前比较好呢?) 是否还有因为我加了M-CSF? 这个cytokine可以让osteoclast precursor分裂。
2-10 million cells per 60-mm Petri-dish. If you use small wells in a plate, certainly cell number has to be reduced.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 16:25 标题: 回复 #76 ladyhuahua 的帖子
There is no any difference with/without M-CSF, but M-CSF is not necessary.
Passage <20 should be ok for osteoclasteogenesis.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 16:25
We have used cells from different sources as osteoclast precursors.
When we used RAW cells, we never count the number of cells. of course you can count. this is the tricky: cells should initially cover the bottom of the well, let's say, 80-90% confluent, does not matter what kind of plate used.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 16:44
monocytes/macrophages, like RAW264.7 cell line. Or primary monocytes/macrophages from animals. Yes, they are osteoclast precursor cells.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 16:48
那么多少 细胞量才够 作一次western blot的呢?
============================
20 ug protein/SDS-gel loading well.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 16:49
前辈, osteoclast 的 phenotype是什么呢
==================================
many, but not rank. please read literatures.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 16:49
I did trap assay for several times, but I could not get the similar result as the pictures posted here. I use the kit bought from Sigma. After the stain, the background is always too strong, too colorful. It likes this, I do not whether the red grains in the cells are the TRAP+ sign.
Personally, I do not think any of the cells you posted here are osteoclasts (or
osteoclast-like-cells). Some are multinucleated cells but they are macrophage
polykaryons.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 16:52
but the treated cell form much more mutinuclear cells than the control.
so is this kit should show so strong background?
do you mean the osteoclast should show the whole cell is red?
thank you so much作者: fei1226com 时间: 2011-12-18 16:53
当我在不作最后一步counter stain时, 和xiaohui一样:染色的细胞是黄色或橘色。
前辈 你说:Nuclei always negatively stained (no color), as you know TRAP is a cell membrane
protein (enzyme). Cells elsewhere should be deep red labeled.
为什么是 cells elsewhere 是红色呢?难道不是有trap的地方是红色的么?也就是在细胞的轮廓上出现红色。
谢谢指教作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:01 标题: 回复 #133 ladyhuahua 的帖子
what i was trying to say is that cells are deep-red labeled except nuclei.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 17:01
All right, to be honest, cells from you are pre-osteoclasts, they are on the way of
differentiation process, but stopped at a certain stage for some reason (RANKL/Overgrow/aged/...). I am saying this is because that
your cells were TRAP labeled (although not as pretty as they should be), but not big enough.
I am using Gibco's FBS, 10% in DMEM plus antibiotics. But other midum should work.作者: fei1226com 时间: 2011-12-18 17:04
请问counter-stained with hematoxylin et al. after TRAP staining.这是什么意思呢?作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:04 标题: 回复 #138 fei1226com 的帖子
Hematoxylin labeles nuclei of any type of cells (not osteoclast-specific), to see how many nuclei a cell has. Personally I do use it when I (TRAP) label bone sections, but have never used it for in vitro generated osteoclasts/osteoclast-like-cells, because you can see neclei cleanly without H staining.
I read your previous posters. It seems that your multinucleated cells (fresh isolated/cultured for <10 days) were osteoclasts. Because when I did bone section (TRAP) staining, I can find only osteoclasts with multinuclei.
Your problem is TRAP staining, the color is not as good as it should be. H staining probabily not needed as well for newly isolated cells.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 17:05
Beware of Hematoxylin, which is not osteoclast specific. For instance, if you have a fluorescent microscope, instead of Hematoxylin, DAPI (or other fluorescent dyes) could be used for counter-staining.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:11
i know that, but without hematoxylin, all are yellow
i could not identify anything, even the boundary of cells.
so i think hematoxylin is necessary.
===========================================
Beware of Hematoxylin, which is not osteoclast specific.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:11
You have two problems:
(1) Your RAW264.7 cells are too old. Because the cells should be round shaped, even upon RANKL stimulation.
I do not see any (mature) osteoclasts on your photos.
(2) TRAP staining. RAW264.7 should be TRAP stained (deep-red) on second day of RANKL stimulation. I think your cells were TRAP stained, (although the color was not perect), it means cells were in the earlier stage of OC differentiation.
You could try to lable original (no RANKL addition) RAW264.7 cells by same method, if they are negatively stained, means your TRAP staining method is some kind of OK. (enen not idealy).作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:15
So you have two problems as I indicated at 2007-05-08 23:06.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:20
I have never read that book, but am able to generate osteoclasts from bone marrow cells, splenocytes, peritoneal macrophages, and RAW264.7 cells, by using our sRANKL and Sigma M-CSF.
OCs we generated are TRAP and cathepsin K (IHC staining) positive, with actin-ring around ruffered-border. They are able to resorb bone.
We have also done histology of bone sections. OCs can be seen very clearly in vivo.
More exciting data are coming soon.作者: 泡泡 时间: 2011-12-18 17:21
前辈, 你说Your RAW264.7 cells are too old.是说这批细胞 诱导了太久 才trap stain还是说这些细胞在seeding的时候就已经太老了呢?
谢谢!作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:21 标题: 回复 #169 泡泡 的帖子
No.
在seeding的时候就已经太老了/or RANKL did not work.
I am reading a book "Bone Resorption" edited by Felix Bronner, Mary C. Farach-Carson and Janet Rubin in 2005, which is really good. I recommend you to read it.作者: 阿敏 时间: 2011-12-18 17:22
Depend on your objectives. I could produce osteoclasts from both primary cells and cell lines, with more than 150 nuclei/OC.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:23
i am a bit sad today because my paper submitted to BLOOD was rejected.作者: 小螺号 时间: 2011-12-18 17:24 标题: 回复 #174 园丁## 的帖子
===============================================================================================
In cell co-culture system (stromal cells/osteoblasts + monocytes), M-CSF is not necessary.
Otherwise (isolated primary monocytes alone), M-CSF/or M-CSF conditional medium (from L929 cell cuture) is mandatory.
OCs are very fragile, detachment is not recommended.作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:35
============================================================================================================
Generally, after reconstitution, protein can be stored at 2-8oC for a maximum of one month. (Your case II).
For extended storage, freeze in working aliquotes at -70oC (or -20oC) for a maximum of one year. (Could be longer). Repeated freezing and thawing is not recommended. (Your case I).
Usually I dilute my proteins with 0.2 um-filtered solution of PBS containing 0.015% BSA (as carrier protein) into reasonable concentration, aliquote, and keep them in -80oC. The RANKL I purified 3 years ago still works well now.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 17:41
bow to Herman6292003~~~~作者: 园丁## 时间: 2011-12-18 17:42
bow to Herman6292003~~~~
====================
what is bow? interesting.作者: ladyhuahua 时间: 2011-12-18 17:42
to luckann:
I am working on the induction of OCs from monocytes recently, but my results after TRAP is sort of strange. Your picture posted on 5-24 is so beautiful! When will I get data like that!
Would you mind if I ask you several questions?
For example: what is the concentration of RANKL you used in your experiment?